The Gaming Den

mean_liar wrote:There's another route to take from Impervious Toughness if you're being a jackass: tradeoff in the other direction, but only to -5/+5.

Jack your Defense up with a Shield or Dodge Focus or whatever is cheap and use Luck (you should have this anyway) and Ultimate Effort (Toughness) to save your ass if you actually get tagged.

The problem is that there are a bunch of defenses (AC, Will, Ref, Fort) but only one way of resisting damage (Toughness). So why pay 4 times as much?

Attacks generally either target Defense and Toughness, or just one save (Will, Fort, Ref).

Given how Toughness saves work, I think you're better off just not getting hit.

The most powerful attacks in the game aren't the Toughness ones, its the (possibly Autofire and/or SecondaryEffect) Snares and Stuns, and they don't give a crap about Impervious Toughness though they might care about Defense.

mean_liar wrote:Attacks generally either target Defense and Toughness, or just one save (Will, Fort, Ref).

There are quite a few attacks that target Ref + Toughness (area effects) and some that target Will + Toughness (Mental Blast, say).

I agree that there are plenty of non-damaging powers you don't want to get hit with, of course.

mean_liar wrote:The most powerful attacks in the game aren't the Toughness ones, its the (possibly Autofire and/or SecondaryEffect) Snares and Stuns, and they don't give a crap about Impervious Toughness though they might care about Defense.

I haven't seen a superhero game yet where the "best" attack (pound for pound) isn't Dimensional Travel, Usable On Others, At Range.

mean_liar:
You can grab impervious toughness for any saving throw--and you should if the DM will let you, since you can get 'impervious' for non-toughness saves. Autofire is an enormous reason why you want impervious.

hogarth:
Unless it's a linked power, dual-effect powers like area blast are actually weaker because it gives the opponent multiple chances to 'dodge' it, especially with expansion options. It's fine for multi-targetting powers, but you'd have to be silly to intentionally use it for a single-target attack.

Also, you actually need to disable foes in Mutants and Masterminds; you can't just wish them to the cornfield. Otherwise they'll just stunt their way back into battle -- unless they picked a loser power source like training or hydrokinesis.

Lago PARANOIA wrote: hogarth:
Unless it's a linked power, dual-effect powers like area blast are actually weaker because it gives the opponent multiple chances to 'dodge' it, especially with expansion options.

Huh? Instead of targeting your opponent's Defense + Toughness, you're targeting your opponent's Reflex + Toughness. How is that giving your opponent more chances to dodge?

There's Evasion, of course, but that doesn't fall under the heading of "multiple chances".

Uh, sorry, I got my wires crossed.

Regardless, you want two ranks of evasion. It will cost you 2 power points. So much for area attacks.

I think that the best superhero RPG out there right now is Super Crusaders. check it out at this link: http://supercrusaders.blogspot.com/
and let me know what you think.

well, 3 sessions in to a champions game, I'm really liking my magneto rip-off, except when we fight discorporating vampires, which we fight - all - ThE - TIME. whatever. The system is rather arcane, but it is quite fun once you get into the swing of things.

LAST CRUSADER wrote:I think that the best superhero RPG out there right now is Super Crusaders. check it out at this link: http://supercrusaders.blogspot.com/
and let me know what you think.

Anyone else find that rather odd for a member's first post?

Edit: a brief google search turns up nothing about that system that's not ALLCAPS copypasta.

Crusader, if you want me to even click on that link, you have 24 hours to prove that you are merely a shill and not a spambot. If you seriously want to shill for your homebrew system, in a way that will get you anything other than mockery you are going to have to tell us something about why it is your favorite system.

hogarth wrote:The problem is that there are a bunch of defenses (AC, Will, Ref, Fort) but only one way of resisting damage (Toughness). So why pay 4 times as much?

Considering the mechanics in M&M, it would be conceptually more accurate to group Fort, Ref & Will in with Toughness since they're all saving throws rolled by the target.

hogarth wrote:There are quite a few attacks that target Ref + Toughness (area effects) and some that target Will + Toughness (Mental Blast, say).

You're handling of area effects is correct. Ref + some non-Ref save. However a Mental Blast is just a straight up Will save and bypasses Toughness. The damage you have to suck up is based upon how badly you've failed your Will save.

ibanez wrote:So yeah, I've been wanting to run a superhero campaign for a while now, however I don't really know a good system to run it in. The only book I've really looked at is the newest edition of Mutants and Masterminds but from what I've read and seen it definitely has some problems.

I'd need to know more about what kind of game you want to run before making a recommendation that would be of any use to you. Knowing where M&M fails for you would be helpful also.

LAST CRUSADER wrote:I think that the best superhero RPG out there right now is Super Crusaders. check it out at this link: http://supercrusaders.blogspot.com/
and let me know what you think.

SHILL DETECTED. WEAPONS ARMED AND READY TO FIRE. ON YOUR MARK, CAPTAIN.

Psychic Robot wrote:

LAST CRUSADER wrote:I think that the best superhero RPG out there right now is Super Crusaders. check it out at this link: http://supercrusaders.blogspot.com/
and let me know what you think.

SHILL DETECTED. WEAPONS ARMED AND READY TO FIRE. ON YOUR MARK, CAPTAIN.

Fire at will.

LAST CRUSADER wrote:I think that the best superhero RPG out there right now is Super Crusaders. check it out at this link: http://supercrusaders.blogspot.com/
and let me know what you think.

OMIGAWD. THAT IS THE BEST LOOKING WEBPAGE FOR AN RPG EVAR!

I PARTICULARLY ENJOYED HOW EVERYTHING IS CAPITALIZED AND THE COVER ART LOOKS LIKE A BUNCH OF RANDOM EXAMPLES FROM A CHEAP HERO BUILDER PROGRAM.

THE MECHANICS SOUND AWESOME. I DOWNLOADED THE BOOK OF CHARACTERS TO SEE HOW AWESOME AND NOW MY MIND BURNS WITH THE FIRE OF AWFULNESS THAT WAS THAT PDF. WHY GOD? WHY? IT WAS EVEN WORSE THAN THE WEBPAGE. IT BURNS.

Flumph wrote:

hogarth wrote:The problem is that there are a bunch of defenses (AC, Will, Ref, Fort) but only one way of resisting damage (Toughness). So why pay 4 times as much?

Considering the mechanics in M&M, it would be conceptually more accurate to group Fort, Ref & Will in with Toughness since they're all saving throws rolled by the target.

Wrong. AC, Will, Ref and Fort are "dodge" mechanics and Toughness is a "soak" mechanic.

Flumph wrote:

hogarth wrote:There are quite a few attacks that target Ref + Toughness (area effects) and some that target Will + Toughness (Mental Blast, say).

You're handling of area effects is correct. Ref + some non-Ref save. However a Mental Blast is just a straight up Will save and bypasses Toughness. The damage you have to suck up is based upon how badly you've failed your Will save.

I stand corrected.

hogarth wrote:

Flumph wrote:

hogarth wrote:The problem is that there are a bunch of defenses (AC, Will, Ref, Fort) but only one way of resisting damage (Toughness). So why pay 4 times as much?

Considering the mechanics in M&M, it would be conceptually more accurate to group Fort, Ref & Will in with Toughness since they're all saving throws rolled by the target.

Wrong. AC, Will, Ref and Fort are "dodge" mechanics and Toughness is a "soak" mechanic.

That can't be right. Not unless you're using a definition of dodge and soak that differs vastly from what I'm familiar with. If so, can you elaborate or provide a link?

Dodge has a meaning in M&M. It's your character's ability to get out of the way. Usually this is represented by your dodge bonus that defaults tp half of your defense bonus. Your dodge bonus is lost if your character is flat-footed, stunned or incapacitated in some other way.

In general the saving throws don't have this limitation, but they can. It's possible to buy protection with the limitation that you lose it if you're denied your dodge bonus effectively making part of your toughness a dodge. The defensive roll feat is essentially that. If you make your toughness save by the margin of your defensive roll then you've dodged it for all practical purposes rather than just soaking it up.

As pointed out many of the effects you save against are staged. What condition they apply to your character depends upon how badly you've failed the save or how many times you've failed it. Snare applies against ref, stun applies against fort and Paralyze applies against will. At least these are the defaults and they can be changed. Damage is also a staged effect that applies against toughness. That also can be changed(Mental Blast for example).

All of these powers require that you actually be hit before a save is needed unless you've bought them up to a perception attack, area effect or something.

So fort, ref & will are just as much of a soak as toughness and toughness is just as much of a dodge as fort, ref & will. At least according to how the rules actually work. Since you play M&M you already know all this, so I'm still guessing that your using different definitions of dodge & soak.

I mean the difference between avoiding an attack altogether (Fort, Ref, Will, AC) and trying to "withstand" an attack that you didn't manage to avoid (Toughness).

Psychic Robot wrote: SHILL DETECTED. WEAPONS ARMED AND READY TO FIRE. ON YOUR MARK, CAPTAIN.

I'm okay with some shilling. I mean we have folks here who do freelance RPG work from time to time and it would be stupid for them not to be able to talk about how proud they were of their work and why you should buy it.

I'm very much not okay with LAST CRUSADER being a spambot who trolls the web for "SUPER HERO RPG".

Josh_Kablack wrote: I'm okay with some shilling. I mean we have folks here who do freelance RPG work from time to time and it would be stupid for them not to be able to talk about how proud they were of their work and why you should buy it.

They had just be prepared for no hold's barred criticism if they share works, especially if they say it is the best hero system out there.

I was mostly hoping to provoke a reaction to see if this guy was real or not.

The style, writing and art are all hideous. From what I could tell from the book of characters supplement free download, the rules had equal attention to quality.

As far as a spambots go, at least this one was germane. *shrugs*

hogarth wrote:I mean the difference between avoiding an attack altogether (Fort, Ref, Will, AC) and trying to "withstand" an attack that you didn't manage to avoid (Toughness).

Then you're flat out mistaken. M&M just doesn't consistently work that way. Examples that prove it are easy to find.

Defense(what you call AC) is always dodge and Ref is dodge in the case of area effects, but Ref is "soak" in the case a standard Snare since the attacker has to roll to hit with it.

Same thing with Stun. The attacker rolls to hit against your Defense and if he's successful you'll have to make a Fort save to tough it out. Sounds like your "soak" again.

How about Will. Paralyze requires an attack roll by default. If hit you have to make a Will save to shrug it off.

Is Toughness always "soak"? I think the Defensive Roll feat is a good example of Toughness as dodge.

Given all that I'm not really sure why you arrived at this dodge/soak distinction in the first place.

Josh_Kablack wrote: I'm very much not okay with LAST CRUSADER being a spambot who trolls the web for "SUPER HERO RPG".

It's obviously a joke site, sort of Time Cube: the RPG. Except the guy behind the time cube just might be serious.

clikml wrote:

LAST CRUSADER wrote:I think that the best superhero RPG out there right now is Super Crusaders. check it out at this link: http://supercrusaders.blogspot.com/
and let me know what you think.

OMIGAWD. THAT IS THE BEST LOOKING WEBPAGE FOR AN RPG EVAR!

I PARTICULARLY ENJOYED HOW EVERYTHING IS CAPITALIZED AND THE COVER ART LOOKS LIKE A BUNCH OF RANDOM EXAMPLES FROM A CHEAP HERO BUILDER PROGRAM.

The cover art is directly copied from results done with HeroMachine, which is free in the basic form...

I bet the next edition is screen caps from City of Heroes.

Gelare wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote:Champions requires extensive agreements between the players and the GM as to the expectations of the campaign. To the extent that it's almost more like a "build your ruleset rule set" than a rule set in its own right. But it is far and away better than its competitors.

-Username17

This has been my experience, too. I've played HERO, and if you're trying to break the game, it's not even a challenge. The players and GM need to agree how things are going to go, and then it's pretty fun.

The GM needs to know the power limits.

When I take new players into my Champions game, I usually build their first character for them. I ask for a concept and then work it from there. Since Champions is "special-effects" driven, it helps get the player to a point where he can play without too much trouble.

Josh_Kablack wrote: Crusader, if you want me to even click on that link, you have 24 hours to prove that you are merely a shill and not a spambot. If you seriously want to shill for your homebrew system, in a way that will get you anything other than mockery you are going to have to tell us something about why it is your favorite system.

Sorry I didn't make it in 24 hours, I've been kinda buisy, but yes, as a matter of fact, I am trying rather clumsily to get word out about the game that I made.
The reason I didn't say more about my game in the first post is that I really didn't want to SPAM the board. but since the subject of the thread is "what's the best superhero RPG ?" I took It as an invitation to say what I really think.
I spent years playing a lot of superhero RPGs and I learned a lot about what doesn't work. I kept the system as simple as I could while still being comprehensive. There are no points to spend, or run out of, Characters are created using classes but powers are purchased with points. Stats are ranked 1-3 and actions are resolved by rolling a number of dice equal to your Stat. A roll of 5 or more is a success, and a roll of 11 or more is a critical success. dice equal to a stat are also used for damage but certain bonuses can alow for more damage dice.
The game's world book includes cute little essays about the comic book genre, and about what works or doesn't work. there is also a description of the city of technopolis. and above all IT'S FREE, right now, so check it out at the link below.
The all caps is just an element of my style. I used the comic sans font and all caps to give the books the look and feel of a comic book. I like it, but I realize some people don't so you have the option of downloading the LC version to get lower case letters. I've also redesigned the website, It now also has lower case letters and SURPRISE: screen caps from City of Heroes. (Those wont be put into the books)
Oh, and not all of the pictures were made using hero machine, and they weren't random either. But of course you can't tell that yet, One of the future books of characters will discuss who those people are and why they grace the covers of the books. I am an artist but hero machine saves a lot of time and I like the results for now. I'll stop using it when I get tired of looking at it, But I even went so far as to ask and get permission from the Hero machine's creators to use the stuff, which is why COH captures wont be used in the book. I don't know whom to ask for permission.
Please forgive my clumsiness in aproaching you but I'm really not very hip to web culture. I'm a poverty striken gaming nerd who couldn't afford his own computer until last year. I did a google search for "the best super hero RPG" and found this site so I could let you know that I think mine is the best. I hope when you check it out you'll agree. If not, that's cool too.

By the way. I don't even know what a spambot is. and as I said above I don't want to spam anyone. If you want to give me feedback without it taking over this thread, my e-mail adress is on my site and there is now a forum on my site that you can post on.